Click here to Register

K9Mania.com - Forums By Dog Lovers for Dog Lovers > Canine Training > Behaving Badly » Pulling on the lead
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2009, 04:02 PM   #21
Jr_K9_Expert
Been Around A While
 
Jr_K9_Expert's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: California, USA
Posts: 4,285
Send a message via AIM to Jr_K9_Expert
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
Even though it is probably too late and you have made your purchase, I feel I must respond to your post and reply to many of the others who responded. Frankly, I am shocked and saddened that so many people recommended the prong collar and halti or gentle leader to help you with your pulling dog. How is it that, in a time when we care so much about the health and happiness of our dogs, in a time when we have invited them into our families and care for them with all of the love and kindness we give to our other family members, dog-owners, presumably people who love their dogs, can still recommend products that use pain and discomfort to train dogs? Would these same people also recommend pinching to teach children? Would they recommend using a product that causes friction burns and terrible neck sprains to help them control their toddlers on a walk in the park?

I imagine they would not. Why, then, do they recommend such action towards our dogs, especially when there are pain-free, healthy, and extremely effective products available? I have raised my dog on products made by a tiny little company called Larz Pet Gear. They make the most amazing products. Their collars and handles are all padded and their leashes are miraculous. They make them with a stretchy shockcord, but its isn't like one of thos silly bungee leashes. You actually buy these in a size specific to your dog's weight so that when you dog pulls, it kind of bounces him back to you. It doesn't hurt him because that cord absorbs all of the shock of the pull (like a shock absorber in your car). It takes that jerk off of your shoulder and arm, too - it is so comfortable. I can't tell you how incredible it is. They also have fabulous harnesses and hands-free systems.

So, if your dog hasn't stopped pulling or if you want to stop hurting him with a prong collar or halti, you really should check out their products. I think you can only buy them on their website - www.larzpetgear.com. These are really great people, too. They will help you make sure you get the right product. They really care about dogs.
I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but do you know the first thing about prong collars? You don't demonstrate it... Despite its appearance it doesn't hurt, the way it works is more revolved around dog psychology rather than brute force/pain. From the testimonials I've read, from the people I've talked to, and from the research I've done I can tell that if used correctly they can be really helpful.

It's worth noting that dog's aren't children either, yes there are some similarities in the way you should handle situations with them, but being anthropomorphic will only lead to problems with dogs.
-Steven



My dog article site - K9Domain
My dog blog - Dog Notes
Jr_K9_Expert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 04:33 PM   #22
gsdmama
Been Around A While
 
gsdmama's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr_K9_Expert View Post
I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but do you know the first thing about prong collars? You don't demonstrate it... Despite its appearance it doesn't hurt, the way it works is more revolved around dog psychology rather than brute force/pain. From the testimonials I've read, from the people I've talked to, and from the research I've done I can tell that if used correctly they can be really helpful.

It's worth noting that dog's aren't children either, yes there are some similarities in the way you should handle situations with them, but being anthropomorphic will only lead to problems with dogs.



here here i agree
rest in peace my little Nikko. until we meet again. momma misses you and her heart aches every time she thinks of you, wishing you were still here to play with Joey and Elsa.
gsdmama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2009, 05:33 PM   #23
Furbilator
Been Around A While
 
Furbilator's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr_K9_Expert View Post
I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but do you know the first thing about prong collars? You don't demonstrate it... Despite its appearance it doesn't hurt, the way it works is more revolved around dog psychology rather than brute force/pain. From the testimonials I've read, from the people I've talked to, and from the research I've done I can tell that if used correctly they can be really helpful.

It's worth noting that dog's aren't children either, yes there are some similarities in the way you should handle situations with them, but being anthropomorphic will only lead to problems with dogs.
Thank you, I am in total agreement. I was wondering if I was the only one annoyed with this poster.
All messages have been lab tested and approved!
Furbilator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 07:29 AM   #24
larsendebs
New Around Here

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10
I don't mind you being blunt at all. However, my opinion regarding prong collars is one widely shared by experts who probably do know the first thing about prong collars. I have read many, many articles (all of it original research, not the opinions of people who say they have read studies, but never even bother to footnote them) on the prong collar, but the best summary I've seen comes from The Association of Pet Dog Trainers Australia. In their 2009 petition to the Australian Bureau of Animal Welfare, they quote several recent studies, all of which are worth reading, and conclude that "Prong collars... work by applying an aversive stimulus to reduce behaviour – in learning theory this is known as positive punishment. Punishment based training can quickly escalate in intensity and frequency resulting in pain and unnecessary suffering...In a study done by Hiby et al. it was found that the use of punishment when training dogs resulted in increased behavioural problems...The historic use of adversarial, coercive techniques no longer makes sense given what we know about dog cognition and learning." Similarly, North American Veterinary Conference Post Graduate Institute in Advanced Clinical Behavioral Medicine (2008),concluded "we know how dogs learn best, and this equipment [prong collars] may actually discourage learning, not to mention potentially hurt the dog. Dogs that are chronically yanked and popped may have recurring laryngeal nerve paralysis and other physical injuries as a result, not to mention seriously damaged psyches...many trainers around the world use inappropriate equipment, but that doesn't make it right." Finally, there is a great book published in 2007 called PUPPY'S FIRST STEPS, written by the faculty at the prestigious Tufts School of Veterinary Medicine, wherein the writers report that prong collars are among the many "aversive, punishment-based" training devices that are harmful to dogs both physically and emotionally.
I'm not anthropomorphic in my approach to dogs. I simply recognize them as feeling, cognizant beings who, like human children, should be taught without resorting to aversive, punishing, or painful actions in order to force them to our will. I'm sorry if you find me annoying, but all you have done so far is express your opinions and malign my perspective, but have neglected to back up your opinions with any unbiased research by experts. Simply because a group of individuals may agree that a particular belief is true does not, in itself, make it right or factual. Rather it seems more reasonable to me to base one's conclusions on evidence, research, and on the opinions of those educated, skilled, and experienced on the topic at hand.
larsendebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 08:28 AM   #25
ann_hawes
Been Around A While
 
ann_hawes's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA
Posts: 1,949
I think the argument against "punishment based training" is a good one, but not completely accurate. I can't think of any instance where a puppy would need a prong collar, but not everyone adopts tiny puppies.
I adopt adult Rotties, dogs who have possibly never been walked on a lead, 100+ lb. dogs who have most often had no training at all. Using any device to punish or correct is detrimental at that critical time, but I also need to be able to have some control over the dogs' actions. For instance, the first walk out into the neighborhood usually comes days or even weeks after adoption day. No matter how much progress I've made in training, that first walk can land anywhere from point A to point B, with A being delightful, and B being disastrous. There are a gazillion variables thrown in the moment we venture out of our own yard. I do not want the dog to bolt and drag me, I do not want the dog hit by a car, I do not want the DOG to CONTROL the walk. Instances will happen that can become far more dangerous to the dog than the pressure of a prong collar. Having seen them used correctly by trainers and incorrectly by dog owners, I will say that from personal experience, they are most often used INCORRECTLY by dog owners. Used correctly, I've seen them become invaluable training tools.
I have tried one and was not effective with it. I do much better with first establishing that very important bond with the dog, and by using a buckle collar and a clicker. I do like the idea of the padded collars that I saw on the larzpetgear website, but since I haven't actually seen one, touched one, or used one, I don't know if it's just a visual panacea, or a effective tool.
The leash does not look effective to me, athough I did not watch the video (I'm still on dialup). I do not comprehend how it would "control" a 130 lb. dog with a bold personality who has only learned basic manners very recently.
I can see these products being very useful for training puppies or smaller dogs, but not every dog and not in every situation.

Silence is golden,
Duct tape is silver.
ann_hawes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 06:07 PM   #26
Jr_K9_Expert
Been Around A While
 
Jr_K9_Expert's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: California, USA
Posts: 4,285
Send a message via AIM to Jr_K9_Expert
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
I don't mind you being blunt at all. However, my opinion regarding prong collars is one widely shared by experts who probably do know the first thing about prong collars. I have read many, many articles (all of it original research, not the opinions of people who say they have read studies, but never even bother to footnote them) on the prong collar, but the best summary I've seen comes from The Association of Pet Dog Trainers Australia. In their 2009 petition to the Australian Bureau of Animal Welfare, they quote several recent studies, all of which are worth reading, and conclude that "Prong collars... work by applying an aversive stimulus to reduce behaviour – in learning theory this is known as positive punishment. Punishment based training can quickly escalate in intensity and frequency resulting in pain and unnecessary suffering...In a study done by Hiby et al. it was found that the use of punishment when training dogs resulted in increased behavioural problems...The historic use of adversarial, coercive techniques no longer makes sense given what we know about dog cognition and learning." Similarly, North American Veterinary Conference Post Graduate Institute in Advanced Clinical Behavioral Medicine (2008),concluded "we know how dogs learn best, and this equipment [prong collars] may actually discourage learning, not to mention potentially hurt the dog. Dogs that are chronically yanked and popped may have recurring laryngeal nerve paralysis and other physical injuries as a result, not to mention seriously damaged psyches...many trainers around the world use inappropriate equipment, but that doesn't make it right." Finally, there is a great book published in 2007 called PUPPY'S FIRST STEPS, written by the faculty at the prestigious Tufts School of Veterinary Medicine, wherein the writers report that prong collars are among the many "aversive, punishment-based" training devices that are harmful to dogs both physically and emotionally.
I'm not anthropomorphic in my approach to dogs. I simply recognize them as feeling, cognizant beings who, like human children, should be taught without resorting to aversive, punishing, or painful actions in order to force them to our will. I'm sorry if you find me annoying, but all you have done so far is express your opinions and malign my perspective, but have neglected to back up your opinions with any unbiased research by experts. Simply because a group of individuals may agree that a particular belief is true does not, in itself, make it right or factual. Rather it seems more reasonable to me to base one's conclusions on evidence, research, and on the opinions of those educated, skilled, and experienced on the topic at hand.
I don't personally find you annoying at all, it's just that you put up a seemingly convincing arguement that seems to be based on erroneous information. And this isn't the first time you use the human children example, nor is it the first time that you advocate that website, although I might be wrong so please correct me if that is the case

However the prong collar is widely misunderstood especially because of it's inhumane appearance. I'm sure that there are reasons why the UK and Australia (idk) have banned them. The main reason would be because of its "medival torture device" kinda look, and because there ARE accidents because people use it incorrectly. This isn't the tools fault now is it? Someone can incorrectly use a leash, this doesn't mean that it's an evil device. I'm not one to be convinced by one person's anecdotal evidence but when I hear success story after success story I will give the tool some credit.

I asked the questions on one of the most populated dog forums and here were the answers: http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-train...ong-pinch.html

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the usage of the prong collar for all dogs, I know from people I've talked to that the more reactive dogs don't do so well with the prong collar, however it works with the majority of dogs. Quite frankly I'll believe someone that has used the prong collar and his results rather than the results of so called experts that most likely have never used a prong collar themselves, and most likely have studies with biased information.

When used correctly the prong collar shouldn't inflict damage/pain. If it fits correctly the collar only slightly pinches the neck of the dog which emulates the corrective nip of a mother dog. This is why the collars effectiveness is said to be more psychological bound rather than by force.

Negative punishment is good and all but you surely know that not all dogs will learn the same way, and some will require positive punishment instead.

Let us remember that no one is saying that the prong is a permanent collar, nor is it a quick fix either. It is just a tool to curve a behavior and after the behavior has dimished through conditioning, you take off the collar and continue one with the training without it. As I've heard it said many times before " A Prong collar is tool, and as such should be put away when it has done its job".

Here is a commonly quoted study by many prong collar advocates:

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:

* 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
* The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
* Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
* Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.


Oh and I've tried the Collar on myself and it doesn't bother as much as one would think, that is taking into mind that the collar is not correctly fitted around an arm and the fact that I don't have the protective fur of a dog

Last edited by Jr_K9_Expert : 01-21-2009 at 06:13 PM.
-Steven



My dog article site - K9Domain
My dog blog - Dog Notes
Jr_K9_Expert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 06:59 PM   #27
hcromley
Been Around A While
 
hcromley's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: kansas
Posts: 1,212
honestly i would never use a prong collar on my dog sorry for those of u who are for it im not sayin your wrong but i have seen some used and they may have been used wrong i wasnt the one using it but the dog whined and u could tell it hurt. and even if it didnt hurt if used correctly i wouldnt take that chance stoli use to pull and with positive training teaching the hea comand and turning and going in the other direction of where he was trying to go made him stop and now i could walk him with my pinky and he will b over 160 pounds and no prong collar was required
great pyrenees lover
hcromley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:25 AM   #28
larsendebs
New Around Here

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10
I agree entirely that prong collars work. They absolutely do - whether they are used correctly or incorrectly. My argument is with how they work. I don't think that there can be any disagreement that they cause discomfort. There is disagreement, I think, about the degree of discomfort caused by these devices and what degree of discomfort is acceptable in dog training. The concept is simple: the dog pulls, the prongs tighten, the dog experiences some level of pain, the dog stops pulling. This "action, distress, response" sequence is the very foundation of aversive training. Where I differ from many of you, except hcromley, is that I simply do not accept the notion that aversive training is ever justified and I am convinced that while it is successful in inhibiting the targetted behavior, it leads to other negative behavior that the practitioner of this kind of training does not relate to their use of this technique. I am a psychologist and spent years studying behavior and all of the tools that have been used by humans to change or control behavior. In study after study, case study after case study, in long-term controlled research, etc the facts are simply unassailable - aversive training is damaging to the psyche of subject, has a negative impact on the relationship between the subject and the perpetrator, and it leads to negative behaviors in other areas of the subject's life. Therefore, it is my firm believe that using pain or discomfort to a dog to control or change his/her behavior is fundamentally misguided and is absolutely unnecessary - for any dog in any situation. As hrcromley pointed out, he/she very successfully trained his/her 160 lb Great Pyrenees using only positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement may take more time and patience than prong collarsl, but it does work and it works without all of the negative consequences caused by aversive training.

Finally, I think that the oft-quoted German study is a myth - not because I disagree with the results, but because I cannot find the original study anywhere. I have looked and looked and looked - even on German language academic and veterinary sites - and I never found it. I'd love to read it if anyone has the source.
larsendebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 06:38 PM   #29
lucana
New Around Here
 
lucana's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3
Hi, some tips in attached link might be useful?
lucana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2009, 06:59 PM   #30
Jr_K9_Expert
Been Around A While
 
Jr_K9_Expert's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: California, USA
Posts: 4,285
Send a message via AIM to Jr_K9_Expert
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
I agree entirely that prong collars work. They absolutely do - whether they are used correctly or incorrectly.
See this is why I asked whether or not you were well informed on prong collar, because I'd have to strongly disagree with the statement above. Prong collars DONT work if used incorrectly. The tool looses the effectiveness/purpose for which it was created if it fits incorrectly and causes damage which it isn't supposed to create. This is a main reason why the prong collar has such a negative stigma, because people use it incorrectly and you end up with a poor dog with some serious injury. As with anything, a clear knowledge is needed to weild a tool effectively, the fact that many use it ineffectively doesn't/shouldn't be blamed on the tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
My argument is with how they work. I don't think that there can be any disagreement that they cause discomfort. There is disagreement, I think, about the degree of discomfort caused by these devices and what degree of discomfort is acceptable in dog training.
Agreed, in that aspect I won't argue, there is some level of discomfort however I'd argue with those that say that it causes pain. But then again, even pulling on the lead (even the one you were talking about) would cause a level of discomfort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
The concept is simple: the dog pulls, the prongs tighten, the dog experiences some level of pain, the dog stops pulling. This "action, distress, response" sequence is the very foundation of aversive training.
Aversive training... The prong collar only creates a negative association with the pulling, the owner is there to positively reinforce the correct behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
I am convinced that while it is successful in inhibiting the targetted behavior, it leads to other negative behavior that the practitioner of this kind of training does not relate to their use of this technique.
Other negative behaviors, such as.....?


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
I am a psychologist and spent years studying behavior and all of the tools that have been used by humans to change or control behavior.
That's very cool, what kind of psychologist, if I may ask


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
In study after study, case study after case study, in long-term controlled research, etc the facts are simply unassailable - aversive training is damaging to the psyche of subject, has a negative impact on the relationship between the subject and the perpetrator, and it leads to negative behaviors in other areas of the subject's life.
A negative association to the perpetrator.... The dog will create the association with whatever immediate thing it's doing or has it’s attention on. When you are on a walk and the dog is pulling the dog isn't concentrated on you, its concentrated on the place it wants to go, therefore it can't place a negative association on you unless you don't know what you are doing. Like I said before the owner/trainer is there to positively reinforce the correct behavior. This fact is the basis for a multitude of training techniques.

Also, I'd like to see anybody who says that the prong collar damages the relationship between the dog and its handler actually prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
As hrcromley pointed out, he/she very successfully trained his/her 160 lb Great Pyrenees using only positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement may take more time and patience than prong collarsl, but it does work and it works without all of the negative consequences caused by aversive training.
I'm am definitely not saying that you can't train a dog not to pull, but let us not forget that not every dog is the same and that not every dog learns with the same techniques. If we take into account the trainablibity of the Great Pyrenees (because of its shepherding ancestry) it's no wonder why hrcromley was able to train not to pull succesfully. Not every dog will learn through negative punishment though, prong collar trainers use the same positive reinforcement that you advocate but use something else to re-direct the attention from the pulling to the owner. After this is accomplished it's like regular heel conditioning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsendebs View Post
Finally, I think that the oft-quoted German study is a myth - not because I disagree with the results, but because I cannot find the original study anywhere. I have looked and looked and looked - even on German language academic and veterinary sites - and I never found it. I'd love to read it if anyone has the source.
If I find it I'll show you Sometimes you have to pay to get access to some study results/details.

Last edited by Jr_K9_Expert : 01-27-2009 at 07:05 PM.
-Steven



My dog article site - K9Domain
My dog blog - Dog Notes
Jr_K9_Expert is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

K9Mania.com - Forums By Dog Lovers for Dog Lovers > Canine Training > Behaving Badly


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT. The time now is 10:56 AM.