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Old 11-19-2007, 12:49 AM   #11
LabMomHouston
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I do believe that breeders that do not happily answer questions about breeding stock are not those I want to deal with. Every respectable breeder that I have worked with always answered every question I asked and was happy to do so. To come out and say that OFA testing is a waste of your hard earned money, to me, is irresponsible. I think every breeder should test their breeding stock for any genetic defects that plague their breeds prior to producing puppies. For all we know, anyone how does not is breeding dogs that may have a genetic issue that has been passed along to some of the puppies produced.

I do not breed dogs but I am an informed buyer. The breeders I chose to work with have been very instrumental in helping me choose dogs that I feel are the best fit for my family and are healthy, happy pups.
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:56 AM   #12
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LOVEmyHAVANESE,

LoveMyLabs I don't think understands the way that she puts things. I have had problems with her in the past to, but I have learned that she puts all of her posts that way. She sometimes asks uncalled for comments, before giving you the chance to explain. I used to be very offended, but now I just look at it as if it were said differently. I don't think it should be something to get upset about. But, I strongly agree with being able to think for your self. I feel that everyone should do this, instead of always following others ideas.
Having fun enjoying the West...One adventure after another!
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMyLabs View Post
Hi there!

I do have one question for you. How do you know that the Havanese is shed free and hypoallergenic? The Havanese Club of America, AKC or any other place I've found with Havanese info never state they are hypoallergenic or no shed.

Have you had your bitches and dogs checked for - Juvenile cataracts, PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy), chondrodysplasia, deafness, hip dysplasia, liver shunts, luxating patellas, and skin conditions? OFA certs on HD and BAER testing?

AKC is a great registry, but APRI is pretty much for any kind of dog - purebred or not.
Why do you have "minis"? They aren't mentioned in the HCA or AKC breed standards. The height is a minimum of 8 1/2 inches up to 11 (or 11 1/2) inches. Weight is 7 - 15 lbs. Do you not believe in meeting and exceeding breed standards?
Also, how do you know if a pup is going to be "show ring material" when she's only a few weeks old? You can't tell that for a few months (minimum) in any breed due to growing.

Your one year guarantee has probably never been used because most genetic diseases don't show up until a dog is 2 years old. That is when most people get them OFA or PENN HIP tested.

You also have ALOT of puppies available at one time, most of which aren't within breed standards and aren't AKC registered. Any particular reason why?


Example there are nicer ways to put this (But, it has been edited so I don't know the original statements). I do feel that LOVEmyHAVANESE is a very educated breeder. She knows a lot. If someone was second guessing my life I would be offended to. There are nicer ways to put things. And, don't jump to conclusions all the time.
Having fun enjoying the West...One adventure after another!
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:06 AM   #14
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Oh I think for myself but I also believe in adhering to a breeds standards. That is the way purebred dogs are kept pure, set to conformation, with certain temperaments, specific purposes and healthy.
If you think health testing is unnecessary you will be the one to end up with unhealthy pups or those that are genetically predisposed to the breeds problems because you, as an irresponsible breeder, are not trying to improve the breed or aid in breeding out health problems.
I may come across as harsh, but I do not need to apologize in this specific situation. I may ask questions that seem uneccesary but I like when people know what they are doing and aren't breeding for fun or profit but for the benefit of the breed.

Weesha - You of all people on here should appreciate good, responsible, ethical breeders over those that don't do health testing or stick to conformation standards. Don't you think that the pups of parents that haven't been health tested could end up in a shelter (perhaps the one you work in) because of HD or LP or deafness, etc? Don't you think that if someone bought a pup that was supposed to have a "chance at being a show dog" and ended up WAY out of conformation because someone breeds below standards that this pup could end up in your shelter? What if the breeder wouldn't take the pup back and it had health issues or temperament issues because it wasn't bred to standard...and ended up at your shelter?

Like you said, any pup could end up there. Mixed or purebred. But I guarantee you that you'll see purebreds that are poorly bred by unethical, irresponsible breeders such as this one.

Guess that's just my opinion.
Tony, Kim, Gunner & Tira.
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:08 AM   #15
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I'll concede to the fact that I could have let Havanese post more before asking all those questions. However, I've still recieved my answers and still believe the way I do about this particular "breeder".
Tony, Kim, Gunner & Tira.
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:12 AM   #16
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All I said was sometimes you put things the wrong way. That is why we have many people starting arguments with you. Thats it. I don't agree with breeding. But, I respect the respondsible ones, yes. I learned a new thing from you today, about breeders taking back there dog's if any thing were going to happen, that is a plus.
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:22 AM   #17
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I know I do. I do it away from the computer as well. I am either very blunt or I beat around the bush. Most of the time there is no middle ground...which can lead to arguments (as we both know ).

I will always respect responsible, ethical breeders of purebreds and will also continue to respect those owners/would be owners that ask the appropriate questions of their breeder to make sure they get a good, healthy, happy, puppy.
I will also respect those that own mixes. I will also continue to try and educate those that believe they have something new and improved when they don't.
I will never respect those that breed mixes for no purpose and contribute to the already gross overpopulation of mixes. Nor will I respect those purebred breeders that don't do health certs, have good contracts, follow the COE, or adhere to the breed standards.
Tony, Kim, Gunner & Tira.
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weesha1717 View Post
LOVEmyHAVANESE,

LoveMyLabs I don't think understands the way that she puts things. I have had problems with her in the past to, but I have learned that she puts all of her posts that way. She sometimes asks uncalled for comments, before giving you the chance to explain. I used to be very offended, but now I just look at it as if it were said differently. I don't think it should be something to get upset about. But, I strongly agree with being able to think for your self. I feel that everyone should do this, instead of always following others ideas.

Here we go again. I agree with both Weesha1717 and lovemyhavanese...Lovemylabs you do go at people in a way that put's them on the defensive and it is always with people who appreciate smaller breeds or do not breed for show. We all need to understand that tone comes through the messages and that we should not always believe that our way is the only way. I bought my first border from a farm in Iowa. They bred only once a year probably did not do all the testing but were good people who took good care of the borders they used for herding so they knew their working ability and personality and health problems of the ones they had. They were honest people who wanted others to enjoy their great borders. She is by far my smartest and most biddable border. I bought 2 of the others from so called responsibile breeders who tested etc. But both had nippy or headstrong backgrounds that made training difficult. Yet to look at their hip scores, the eye testing, and the great breeding background you would have thought I got deals. Weesh1717 I remember when you and Lovemylabs got into it. But it does not make it correct that people have to be put on the defensive. So I must remind everyone to please be polite and interested in others but not go through the Spanish inquisition. Thanks Weesha1717 for trying to help Lovemyhavanese.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMyLabs View Post
--How knowledgeable is the breeder about this particular breed? Are they familiar with its historical origins? Can they educate you about the breed's disadvantages - especially genetic
--Are the breeder's dogs screened for genetic health defects like hip dysplasia, eye disorders, hypothyroidism, Von Willebrand's disease, epilepsy, cardiac conditions, and anything else that is common in the breed? Can they provide you with proof, e.g.,

--Does the breeder have any old dogs on the premises? .
--How many breeds is this person breeding? Ideally, someone will have a special interest in only one breed (perhaps two).
--Are the breeder's dogs kennel dogs or house pets? While it is sanitary to keep large numbers of dogs outside in a kennel, you want a breeder who keeps their dogs in the house with the family.
--Will the breeder provide you with the names of their veterinarian and several past purchasers to serve as references? If given a choice, request pet references.
--What kind of guarantees does the breeder offer? Most will offer a replacement puppy or refund of purchase price if your puppy manifests a serious genetic defect.

--Does the breeder expect to sell you a puppy with strings attached? Concerned, responsible breeders will insist that you neuter your pet puppy as soon as it is old enough.

--At what age does the breeder send puppies to their new homes? Avoid any breeder who wants to send home a puppy younger than seven weeks. Many good breeders will release puppies at 8 weeks, but as long as the puppy is being actively socialized, it is arguably better to wait until 10 or 12 weeks.


--What does the breeder do to socialize their puppies? Ask them for specifics.
--A good breeder will be very interested in who you are and somewhat choosy about whether you are able to provide an adequate home for one of their cherished pups.
--A good breeder will participate in breed rescue efforts for the breed they love.
--What does the breeder do for a living? Dog breeding should be an avocation. Avoid anyone who makes their living through breeding dogs! The corners they cut financially may be at your expense.

-Are the premises clean and orderly? Are the breeder’s dogs healthy in appearance? It can be a messy proposition to raise a litter of puppies,

--Do you like the temperaments of the puppies' parents?

--Does your breeder respect veterinarians, trainers, groomers, breeders, and other peer professionals in the dog world?

Wow - sure seems like someone doesn't fit this checklist very well.
This statement is inappropriate based on the fact that your questions to Lovemyhavanese stuck to genetic and health information.


Everyone remember we are not here to judge each other but by neutral, fact based, not opinionated posts we can educate everyone. The post just on what a good breeder does is enough without the judgement because noone over a computer can judge the behavior of the other. I agree with each and every one of these bullets but I also know that very few breeders follow every one of them. Many I know have strings such as breeder contracts. Many don't have the dogs in the house. Mine always have but that does not always quarantee good dispostion. Please let up.
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:06 AM   #20
Wolfwalker
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Well I thought this was a welcome thread. So assuming you haven't been put off by the nasty sniping:

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